Java 6 and Scripting
Sun released Java 6 yesterday. Of particular interest (to me at least) is the explicit direct support for scripting languages as a "core" part of Java (more or less - of the Java 6 edition "package" at least...).
Though I intuitively understand it (and believe it), I've still yet to see a reasoned justification as to why we need scripting languages? Is the compiler that much a barrier to productivity?
Otherwise - some nice additions to Java 6 (especially the XML APIs, which, like E4X, are critical for easing web services development - nice), but despite them, I think Java 6 moves it further away from a credible client-side computing platform - too much increasing complexity, which creates distribution issues. I think Microsoft's mini-CLR is a better step in that direction. Open source and mobile/phone development may change that for Java, but I think a variety of factors will continue to impede relevance in that space.
Though I intuitively understand it (and believe it), I've still yet to see a reasoned justification as to why we need scripting languages? Is the compiler that much a barrier to productivity?
Otherwise - some nice additions to Java 6 (especially the XML APIs, which, like E4X, are critical for easing web services development - nice), but despite them, I think Java 6 moves it further away from a credible client-side computing platform - too much increasing complexity, which creates distribution issues. I think Microsoft's mini-CLR is a better step in that direction. Open source and mobile/phone development may change that for Java, but I think a variety of factors will continue to impede relevance in that space.
posted by Sree Kotay at 5:29 AM
14 Comments:
It's important to identify what constitutes a "scripting" language. I don't think the compiled/interpreted distinction is of much importance. There are very few "real" interpreters. Most real interpreted language implementations include a compilation phase to some internal intermediate form (if only in memory) that is evaluated by a simple VM.
I think the real determining factor is one of static typed vs. dynamic typed languages. So I guess the real question that should be posed, “Does static typing in languages hamper productivity?”
My own answer to this is yes and no… and it depends… heh. I mean certain things like JSON/Javascript, as a serialized wire format demonstrates the power and flexibility of dynamic typing. But getting runtime type errors for things that would have been caught through static type checking is sort of lame as well. I think in the end you want a mix, encourage and support static typing but, allow for language integrated dynamic types for their power and expressiveness.
-JR
"Java 6 moves it further away from a credible client-side computing platform - too much increasing complexity, which creates distribution issues."
Chris Oliver has some neat demos of client-side JSR-223 compliant scripting with what he calls "F3". Several of them are "equivalents" of AJAX and Flash demos. But still I agree with you client side Java, with or without scripting, is slooww...I think mostly the JVM startup time and foorprint are to blame...
Hey JR - so... not sure I agree (entirely). That is, seems like there's other things (aside from the obvious, like sand-boxing) - but i wouldn't say that static typing is the key differentiator; otherwise variants and the like would be more popular.
seems more a tool/authoring chain thing?
So not sure if sand-boxing would be a differentiator either (obvious or not :P). Both Java and the CLR ,as examples, support compiled languages with provisions for sand-boxed execution environments.
But y... perhaps the real discriminating factor comes down to "do I run the source code" or "do I run some intermediate or native compiled form". Which does come down to a toolchain/authoring thang. Since the compilation phase can ALWAYS be hidden inside the toolchain giving the feel (for all intensive purposes) of a "scripting language" regardless of the language. Unless we go back to talking about the actual language features that characterize scripting languages.
-JR
no - I agree with all that. What I meant was - looking at that way, why did Sun feel like they needed to add such robust and broad scripting support to *JAVA*?
Maaaaaybe some small percentage was about end users scripting tools, but I have to imagine the vast majority was "source" developers. Its already (reasonably) portable, has a distribution format, etc. etc.
Is it just a skills/language re-use thing? Some productivity gain? or...?
So the way I see it... They added it for the same reasons that Microsoft defined the IActiveScript interface. To have an extensible plugin framework for "embedding" scripting languages into an application written in Java. So certainly targeted towards developers that are writing apps like browsers or webservers that want to integrate scripting languages in some extensible way.
-JR
Hm - I get that; but why do people want scripting languages? For Java apps, end user/client-side mods have got to be small...
I think I tend to agree with the extensibility argument.
As for why then use a scripting language? Low entry cost for the developer? Just the app running your script, your knowledge of JavaScript/Python/insert-language-here and a text editor?
Cuz adding scripting language support for plugins/extensions to your app is the new black?
<<
Cuz adding scripting language support for plugins/extensions to your app is the new black?>>
lol - yeah, sometimes I think that's the real reason...
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